56 replies to this topic

[ProfHall]

it might even be non-linear

Oh, my. Are we going down the math path again? I'll wait to see what others throw in before I say anything too "nerdy" here about just what non-linearity we might predict for the altitude factor...

And, back to the original topic, THANKS Tom. As the list grows (I know it will), this will be a post that gets printed and pasted into my hiking/planning notebook. What? Don't you ALL have a notebook like this? Really? :P

[workrelease]

sauntering down the math path... actually it is non-linear (duck) ;)

Looky here...

[Malok]

Would it be possible to either pin this list or to add it to another section of the website? I know that I will be refering to it often, especially if Tom keeps updating it. I have already copied all of the information posted to my Palm to help with planning.

I really like the TV scale and will be using it a lot. Keeping it accessible on this website will also really help.

Tom, can I use the TV scale on my trip reports. I'd certainly give you credit?

Malok

[Malok]

Tom,

Would you also be able to calculate the Oddessa Loop Trail beginning at the Fern Lake Trailhead. I would like to see how this compares in difficulty with doing it the standard way.

Malok

[Aaron]

Would it be possible to either pin this list or to add it to another section of the website?

I'll do both. For now I'll pin it. Then when I get the redesign done I'll have an info section that leads directly to this thread.

What a cool thing Tom's doing for us all, eh?

--Aaron

[Veik]

Tom, can I use the TV scale on my trip reports. I'd certainly give you credit?

Sure. Okay with me.

Would you also be able to calculate the Odessa Loop Trail beginning at the Fern Lake Trailhead. I would like to see how this compares in difficulty with doing it the standard way.

You've just discovered another flaw with the formula. You get the same score whether you're going up or down. It's not perfect, just a rough guide to relative difficulty.

Tom

[Malok]

Tom, you math geeks are going to have to find a way to compensate for this in your formula as there is a MAJOR difference depending on how you do it. One way is all up hill and the other is downhill. Shouldn't more weight be given to uphill climb than to descent? There must be a way to figure this out. Anyone have any ideas???

[Veik]

Most hikes, the out and back ones on the same trail, do the same amount of up as down so it evens out. It's those one way hikes that have that problem. It's the same as the altitude problem, how much do you compensate. The math is easy, knowing what the correction factor is, is the hard part.

Added Alpine Visitors Center to Milner Pass (Ute), The Crater, The Loch and Deer Mountain.

Tom

[Veik]

Maybe someone should start a poll. How much harder is up-hiking than down-hiking? 2 times? 3 times? etc.

Tom

[Veik]

Tom, you math geeks are going to have to find a way to compensate for this in your formula as there is a MAJOR difference depending on how you do it. One way is all up hill and the other is downhill.  Shouldn't more weight be given to uphill climb than to descent? There must be a way to figure this out. Anyone have any ideas???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been thinking about this and rather than do a complete overhaul of the formula, I just tweeked the original formula a little.

For down-hill hiking:
Since hiking down is not as easy or easier than hiking level, I decided to split the difference between what the old forumla added for elevation gain and what the old forumla would have added for hiking level.

For up-hill hiking:
Then I added that difficulty that was removed from the down-hill part of the formula, to the up-hill part of the formula.

Now if you calculate the two directions for an out-and-back hike separately and then add them together, you get the same answer for an out-and-back hike that you would have with the old forumula. In other words, the only scores that change are those for one way hikes.

So what does that mean for a hike like the Odessa Lake hike between the Bear Lake trailhead and the Fern Lake trailhead? If you hike from the Fern Lake trailhead to Bear Lake, the new score is 14.0. Going the other direction, the new score is 12.6. Remember that even if you go the "down-hill" direction, there is still almost 1500 feet you have to climb up.

Now, what's that snow shoe factor?

[TempestT-37]

I have been doing a google search trying to find out what a “TV Index” is. All my searches come up empty, so the only thing that I can guess what it means is Tom Veik. Is the TV Index a way that you (Tom) came up with to rate hikes?

[Veik]

Yep, TV is me. I just called it the TV-Index for lack of a better name. It's my variation on a formula I found a few years ago. The first post of this topic gives the details and a list of hikes with their associated difficulty level.

[Aaron]

During the STOMP, we wondered what to add in for snowshoeing. Also, a few of us were wondering about a TV calorie burning index for these destinations. Whaddya say Tom?

--Aaron

[coons10]

This may sound a bit silly and I'm not sure that I am capable of choosing the right terms to properly describe my question.

I just want to be clear on this basic assumption of mine... a tv-index of 10 is twice as difficult as a hike with a score of 5? Am I understanding the relationships between these scores correctly? Its been a long time since I took a statistics class, so I don't remember too many of the terms.

So for example... if the hike to Mt. Lady Washington is a 19.8 and Longs Peak is a 26.9, then (19.8/26.9 = .736) So then I should assume the Mt. LW is ~26% less strenuous than the hike to Longs. Does that sound logical to everyone? That sounds like too big a difference to me.

Since I have not hiked either trail, (yet) can anyone shed some light on this for me? Anybody thats hiked both Long Peak and Mt.LW agree with the math? Is Mt.LW 26% easier than Longs.

Thanks!

[Aaron]

I'm not sure. I believe the TV Index is a work in progress. You may very well be pointing something out that was overlooked. TV stands for Tom Veik who is a member of this site, tlveik. I don't recall what the formula is. I'll double check and see if it's listed earlier in this topic.

--Aaron