14 replies to this topic

[rcw]

Here is an article that gives hope for a reprieve for the pines in RMNP. Perhaps those pesky beetles will freeze before they kill every pine in the park.

http://www.dailymail...tarts-here.html

"The bitter winter afflicting much of the Northern Hemisphere is only the start of a global trend towards cooler weather that is likely to last for 20 or 30 years, say some of the world’s most eminent climate scientists."

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz0cFweTFTn

Edited by rcw, 10 January 2010 - 05:45 PM.

[Rhonda]

Yay Nature! Let's give Al Gore an inconvenient truth.

[GLENNinPA]

Rhonda, on 10 January 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

Yay Nature! Let's give Al Gore an inconvenient truth.

He'll just take credit for inventing the cold spell that wiped out Global Warming.

[Melanie]

GLENNinPA, on 11 January 2010 - 08:05 AM, said:

He'll just take credit for inventing the cold spell that wiped out Global Warming.

That man has no problem taking credit!


Melanie<><

[DeeCeeM]

Getting back to the possibility that a trend towards colder winters could halt the spread of the pine beetles . . .



That would be wonderful it did the trick! Here's hoping.

[ProfHall]

DCM, thanks for the "redirect." While Gore is a blowhard, climate change is not a joke. Oceans are warmer (with rising sea levels and higher acidity), fish populations are diminished and/or moving, there is almost no snow on Kilimanjaro any longer (and glaciers are in retreat worldwide), and when we joke about global "warming" when it's cold here misses the point. Climate change is global, and while weather in an area is colder, other areas are getting drier and warmer (as in the expansion of the Sahara into formerly temperate and agriculturally productive areas). We have to think larger than our own backyards about broad lifestyle choices we make and their consequences.

[hahn23]

ProfHall, on 11 January 2010 - 10:05 AM, said:

DCM, thanks for the "redirect." While Gore is a blowhard, climate change is not a joke. Oceans are warmer (with rising sea levels and higher acidity), fish populations are diminished and/or moving, there is almost no snow on Kilimanjaro any longer (and glaciers are in retreat worldwide), and when we joke about global "warming" when it's cold here misses the point. Climate change is global, and while weather in an area is colder, other areas are getting drier and warmer (as in the expansion of the Sahara into formerly temperate and agriculturally productive areas). We have to think larger than our own backyards about broad lifestyle choices we make and their consequences.

Very well stated, ProfHall. I agree with you 100%. I don't wish to engage in the political and religious junk radio stuff, and I will not participate. But, I do see real evidence of Climate Change. It's tangible and visible. I've lived in the Colorado Rockies for seven years. Even though we have begun to emerge from a multiple year drought, we continue to see epidemic and catastrophic death of the Lodge Pole Pine forests and some of the Ponderosa Pines. The red trees in the photo below have died this year. During the second year following death, the trees turn gray and blend in a bit more. The Pine Bark Beetle epidemic is a real problem. And, it's not an event which would have happened except for Climate Change.

[GLENNinPA]

I was joking because he "supposedly" took credit for inventing the internet. I wasn't expressing my political or religious views. I never have nor will I ever. Could I say more on both these subjects? Yes, but I don't. This is no place for that.

I also have never joked about climate change. I do my part to help with that. Do I do enough? No. I also believe that we as a human race are not totally responsible for Global Warming and Climate Change. I'm not saying we are not responsible at all, just maybe adding to it or speeding it up or maybe not at all. Maybe the earth goes through these cycles or periods, just like an ice age. Or I could be totally wrong, I am not a scientist. There are smarter people than me for that and they fall on both sides of the fence.

As for the Pine Beetle devastation, that is wonderful news if correct. It would be nice to see some of the trees survive. Once again though, maybe this is meant to happen with the trees. A natural occurrence to thin the forest for re-growth? Who knows. Maybe this cycle has happened before... long before we were around to witness it.

[DeeCeeM]

I remember in the podcast that Aaron did with Dave Leatherman and Ingrid Aguayo on pine beetles they said those trees have about a 30 year life span and that many of the trees dying now are the ones that first sprouted after the last pine beetle epidemic of about 30 years ago.

[bjhime]

Now if we could only get the scientists on one page, or maybe the science itself, or maybe the politicians from infecting the scientists. Climate change? What a novel idea. Arctic summer sea ice has increased by 409,000 square miles, or 26 per cent, since 2007. Maybe the world isn't ending, just changing like it's done for the past billion years. Gear up, it's getting colder, or is it warmer??

[Mark Zemmin]

Just my $0.02.

This subject has been so politicized that it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion about it. It seems warming and cooling cycles are not new to the earth, but to what affect are we making it worse is hard to determine. We seem to be entering a cooling cycle, but even that is speculation. There are so many factors that affect all this, the sun, the wind, the oceans, volcanoes, ... that the science is not near good enough to accurately measure or predict this.

I am more concerned with air and water quality, that is something we can change and clearly something that humans are adversely affecting.

Again, this is just an opinion.

Mark

[misssilly]

Mark Zemmin, on 11 January 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

I am more concerned with air and water quality, that is something we can change and clearly something that humans are adversely affecting.

Again, this is just an opinion.

Mark

I like the way you think, Mark!

Indirectly related to this thread ( ), my academic experience is leading me to be more and more cynical about some forms of research at the university and institute levels. Interestingly, over the weekend, I listened to an episode of Talk of Alaska about the UA system, funding, and the pressures that researchers are facing (and somewhat falling to). It's an interesting chat.

On the actual topic, the historic pictures of the glaciers of Mount Rainier are eye-opening. Cycle or not, human-caused or not, the Nisqually Glacier (one of the most studied glaciers in the Lower 48) is a mile shorter in length than it was a hundred years ago.

[rcw]

Mark Zemmin, on 11 January 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

Just my $0.02.

This subject has been so politicized that it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion about it. It seems warming and cooling cycles are not new to the earth, but to what affect are we making it worse is hard to determine. We seem to be entering a cooling cycle, but even that is speculation. There are so many factors that affect all this, the sun, the wind, the oceans, volcanoes, ... that the science is not near good enough to accurately measure or predict this.

I am more concerned with air and water quality, that is something we can change and clearly something that humans are adversely affecting.

Again, this is just an opinion.

Mark

Not just quality but quantity of water as well. We are using up our water tables. This is a problem we could actually solve and you hardly hear anything about it.

[ScottO]

bjhime, on 11 January 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

Now if we could only get the scientists on one page, or maybe the science itself, or maybe the politicians from infecting the scientists. Climate change? What a novel idea. Arctic summer sea ice has increased by 409,000 square miles, or 26 per cent, since 2007. Maybe the world isn't ending, just changing like it's done for the past billion years. Gear up, it's getting colder, or is it warmer??

My understanding is that the scientist mentioned in the linked article that started this thread didn't say he disagreed with global warming. He was discussing differences between models with different time frames and the general public tends to think that global warming means that the temperature goes up a little every year. In decade length models he sees the possibility of cooler temps while the longer term trend is still up. That's not a contradiction, but he felt it was bad timing in the sense that it will make the general public and politicians think global warming is over. It's like the stock market; there are up weeks and months in bear markets and down weeks and months in bull markets.

Not promoting one view or the other, but I thought the article didn't accurately cover the story.

ScottO

[bjhime]

Mark Zemmin, on 11 January 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

Just my $0.02.

This subject has been so politicized that it is almost impossible to have a rational discussion about it. It seems warming and cooling cycles are not new to the earth, but to what affect are we making it worse is hard to determine. We seem to be entering a cooling cycle, but even that is speculation. There are so many factors that affect all this, the sun, the wind, the oceans, volcanoes, ... that the science is not near good enough to accurately measure or predict this.

I am more concerned with air and water quality, that is something we can change and clearly something that humans are adversely affecting.

Again, this is just an opinion.

Mark

Well said, Mark.